Hello. How are you? How are you? Busy?

I’m okay. Not too busy. I had a meeting this morning. It’s a call with Tokyo. That’s why. That’s why it’s early.

No problem.

The rest of the schedule is fine, so I’m not too busy.

Yeah, I think Tokyo would want to get off work, too. Well, anyway, thank you very much for sparing some to talk to me! To start off, perhaps tell us more about yourself? Like your experiences and thoughts on career and what to study, up till university?

First of all, I went to college in the northeast. Ah sorry, I meant to say high school. And then, uh, when I was in high school. Since maybe middle school (years 7-9), I’d already taken a liking to maths. So by the time I got into high school, I was obsessed with maths. But then, I couldn’t really find a good way to apply maths into real life. And I didn’t have any good way of finding out about what applications there could be. So when I went to college, I initially decided against choosing my favourite subject, and chose Economics & Finance.

Oh, what! I thought you were in Quantitative Finance!

Yes! At the beginning at HKU, I was actually in Economics and Finance. But after I started, I realised there was a subject called quantitative finance. And I thought, this might be what I wanted, to be able to combine applied maths to the real world. So I began preparing to change majors.

Just to ask, why didn’t you consider mathematics at the start?

Oh, well. It’s not easy to say why. I mean, since I was young, I took to maths quite well, and I was pretty obsessed with the logic and reasoning behind it. I suppose real life is way more chaotic than what’s captured in a scientific subject like maths, but it’s still possible to use maths as a method to describe the world. I believe this is quite important.

So that’s why I thought, I wanted to find a way to apply maths to something that was not too abstract, too removed from the real world. So I always kept an eye out for something along those lines.

And when I got into university, I actually kept a close watch of the quantitative finance major, taking classes and such. I started preparing to switch over in Year 2, and then after year 3, I successfully transferred over to major in quantitative finance.

Did you have to defer, or could you transfer your credits over?

Oh, I didn’t have to, as I basically followed the Quantitative Finance programme while doing the Economics & Finance one. It’s basically the same.

That’s good. Before we proceed further, I just wanted to ask – what industry are your parents in? Did they influence your career choices?

I think they did. I think so. Because my parents…I’m the first in the family to get into University. My mum and dad didn’t go to University. They didn’t really understand these subjects, like finance, economics, maths. So they didn’t give me that many suggestions on these topics.

The only person who did have some sort of understanding was my uncle. He was a professor in the Maths department of a university. But even he didn’t really have many insights for me when it came to career choices. For him, as an academic, it was more like going straight into being a professor. But there weren’t many suggestions when it came to industry or how to apply maths to real life.

So I guess I didn’t have much by way of guidance, which I guess did impact my decision making along the way. It’s only until I reached university that I began to understand more about this sort of thing, and I began to explore more about this.

OK! So how did you go about exploring careers relating to quantitative finance at University?

Hmm, maybe after university, I would explore a bit more through alumni and peers at HKU. I would have frequent discussions with them about the finance industry, what sort of directions we could take within the industry, that sort of discussion.

At the time, there weren’t that many people in the quantitative finance field in Hong Kong, to be honest.

Editor’s note: That was about 2014.

And I discovered that many alumni that studied quantitative finance, after university they did not necessarily pursue this field. There just weren’t many people in this field in Asia. So after I talked with alumni, I discovered that many of them, they had to do a masters or a PhD, and maybe go to places like London or New York, where there are more positions for quants.

So after my third year, after switching to quantitative finance, I spent most of my Year 4 applying to masters programmes.

Did you try to simultaneously seek a quant role in HK?

Sure, but at the time, and I don’t know what it’s like now, but at the time, the few jobs available tended to require a masters degree. So it was difficult. With a bachelors, I would probably have had to get a referral in order to make it. So I didn’t really have a choice but to study!

So you had to go to school in the UK then.

Well yes and no. I applied and got quite a few offers from other UK and US universities too. But in the end, I chose Oxford to study a masters in quantitative finance.

So now you are about to graduate from Oxford. It’s time for you to find a job in the UK then. What was that like? Especially when compared to HK.

Oh, it was pretty different! As I mentioned, vacancies for quants were quite limited in Hong Kong. So I had to apply for positions like research analyst. But it was very challenging in Hong Kong, given the competition.

But in the UK, when I arrived in like, 2017/2018, I didn’t feel that level of competition for roles. At the time, as long as you applied, there was quite a good chance that you would get an interview. And the UK at that time, the number of opportunities wasn’t that scant. So employers were pretty flexible on requirements, like my work experience, or what I knew, or what internships I’d done. All they seemed to care about was my academic performance, or whether I was a good worker. That’s all they cared about for internships it seems! So my experience with finding internships in the UK was pretty smooth, and I managed to find an internship even before I graduated, and managed to find a full time position after that.

So yeah, I think that it’s maybe…because competition wasn’t as tight back then as it is now. Nowadays, the labour market here is fiercely competitive. And compared with Hong Kong too, at the time it wasn’t so competitive.

So when compared with your peers, let’s say. What do you think you did that made you stand out vs them?

So you know how in the UK, masters programmes tend to only be a year long. So I decided early on that, as soon as university began, I would need to start looking for internships in the following year. So I was pretty proactive in talking to the careers service at the University, getting help from them on my CV and on applications. I started all this in October, way earlier than my classmates. And then afterwards, I put a lot of work in interview preparation, such as questions relating to the quant field, mock interviews, etc. So yeah, I prepared and applied a bit earlier than everyone else.

And I’ve found that yeah, if you apply early, you’re more likely to get an interview as spaces haven’t filled up as much. In that way, by December, I managed to get an offer for an internship at JP Morgan for the coming Summer, which was pretty fast.

Was there anything different in terms of applying in London or Hong Kong?

Not particularly. Both cities are pretty international, so the processes should be quite similar. Particularly as most of the firms I applied to were quite international, and their hiring processes are pretty similar globally.

So then you graduated and went to Citi.

Yeah, fortuitously they had a vacancy at the time. And I believe it was a good choice.

Ok! So it’s your first full time job. What challenges did you face, and how did you adapt to your first job?

So I think the thing that stood out most was that I didn’t have a great understanding of the processes within the business. And as a quant, it’s also important to get familiar with the company’s models and coding library. So when I initially started, one big problem was when I was in meetings with the trading side, the products they talked about, I was not so familiar with. I mean, we rarely touched on those sorts of things in school. But they, and especially my manager, knew I was pretty junior, so they were willing to be patient in teaching me the ropes. And I also took the initiative to go through the documentation regarding the models. My manager also gave me some mini projects to do in order to better understand the code base and the quant development process. So I guess I had to spend a bit of time on it at the start, but after maybe half a year, I began to understand the processes and products. Some products are pretty complex, so I had to continuously spend time learning them.

So in summary: 1) Spend a lot of time self-learning, and b) reach out to your line manager/colleagues when you face difficulties.

Indeed. In our team, we only had two people – my line manager and me. And there wasn’t that much work going around. So my line manager could afford me the time to get me up to speed. He really spent a lot of time training me, so I was quite lucky. He was pretty experienced and had been at Citi for quite a long time. So he also had a good understanding of the company’s processes. I learnt a lot from him.

So after you got used to it, how did you begin to move from acclimatisation to excelling?

I think people, after gaining an understanding of a subject, should begin to really take ownership of what they’re doing. In the first two years, I spent more time learning and following my boss’ instructions. After, I would begin to independently complete projects. In that time, my catchups with my line manager became less frequent, and I would complete projects by myself at my own pace. And after a while, I would find a specific area for me to specialise and become an expert in. So that, when the company has a need in my specific area, I could be the go-to expert for the company. So from that transition from junior to mid-senior..I’m in my fifth year, and I’ve been taking up more ownership of projects.

I see! Final question – what recommendations would you like to share for fresh graduates?

Hmmm. Well, I think when you initially get into University, it’s pretty common to be a bit lost or confused. And what my thoughts and views were at the start are pretty different now. When you come across and internalise so many different ideas, experiences, and concepts, your views will naturally change. So it’s natural to be a bit lost. As long as you keep exploring new ideas, and work hard in understanding them…I know it’s hard to. Like, I know it’s hard for some people to change their view, or they don’t want to. This really is an individual choice, but for me, I like coming across new things. When I’m bored or when things are different from what I thought, I like to explore a bit and try to improve my understanding. I mean, this is my own approach, some people like stability, or like a relaxed approach to things and that’s fine too. I just like to dive deeper into things I’m interested in. But you know, what I’m interested in may also change over time! But yeah, I like to come across new things and spend time understanding them, and adjust my views accordingly.

Oh yeah, you also said at the start, that opportunities for quants were relatively limited in Hong Kong. Is it still the same now?

Errm, I think there are actually more opportunities now. More on the buy-side though, such as quant research roles at hedge funds. I know a lot of local hedge funds in Hong Kong are doing this, so there’re definitely many more opportunities compared with 6-7 years ago when I was there.

Thank you very much for your time.

Chen Xu is currently with Citi as a quantitative analyst in London. He may be reached on Linkedin here.